Unlocking human potential (ep24)
INTRO:
When business meets creativity and to top it all, empathy, you get Bojana Duovski. Pioneer and a strong leader in unlocking human potential, we could describe her as one strong woman. She says she was privileged to have Mediterranean roots but to still grow up in Nederlands. She had the best of both worlds, didn’t miss the opportunity o combine them, thus making a revolutionary company called Your next story. Bojana devoted her life to finding and bringing the best in each person. She’s dedicated to making your company more than just a work zone, advancing it to a place that brings the best qualities in people. We could say that she takes each company on a journey through metamorphosis to its very roots. How does she do it? By simply focusing on the people.
Nemanja: This is Chair, a place where we discuss innovations. In times like this, where so many things are uncertain, human potential can be neglected and forgotten. Even though it can be the solution to uncertainty. In order to find a way to overcome this, we talked with Bojana Duovski. She’s a Serial entrepreneur, a creative business innovator with the knack to unlock human potential. Paying forward is a part of her life. So, Bojana, welcome to Chair, it’s a pleasure to have you here.
Bojana: Thank you very much. I love to be here.
Nemanja: So based on your firsthand experience, does personal development depend on the place of birth, and your direct surroundings?
Bojana: Well, you know, I think this discussion is very old — nature versus nurture, and how it’s also very controversial over time. But I think from my personal experience, that actually, through life both are kind of dynamic in a way. And both contribute either to, let’s say, personal developments, or new things that we have to learn. And I think on both sides, there are pluses and minuses. So I think there is something new going on. If I look at surroundings, for example, now I’m very active within a foundation in Amsterdam which is fighting equality, because, through Corona, the distinction between social layers has become bigger. And if you look at, let’s say, disadvantaged areas where we are very active to see what’s going on on the social level, you see that, for example, they have this student following system, where they actually follow the educational level of children between the age of, I think, 7 till 12. Then they actually choose a direction where they are heading in high school. So this is the level of education they’re going for. If you look at that, it’s very interesting to see that the average of those kids are not different than, let’s say, overall the city, so disadvantaged areas versus the city of Amsterdam. Although, the advice they get to go into the higher system is lower. So like 24% of the disadvantaged areas, they get lower advice and we’re in the city of Amsterdam, it’s like 43%. So it is like surroundings are influenced by what you are going to be when you’re a grown-up. So I think it’s very much influencing.
N: You mentioned nature versus nurture and, of course, there is that story about culture versus mentality, right? How does this influence exactly climbing on the stages of the muscle?
B: Well, I think you need a lot of luck, too. If I look at my own story, I didn’t have the chance to go into University, but by getting to know the right people and the right network, and sometimes they also say like, your net worth is more the people you know than what the knowledge you have. So you have to really also be lucky to have the right network. And also within this foundation, for example, we try to help those kids to broaden their horizon to look into new networks, new people because if your bubble is this small, it will never get bigger.
N: I want to move to your entrepreneurship spirit and I know that you made quite a few companies in your life and to concentrate on one with a very interesting name — Your next story. This is the company that you founded that has a very interesting program, called — A 100-day program. Can you give me a glimpse of what this program is really about?
B: Actually, I’m doing this company with two partners. It’s interesting to say that we didn’t have the concept of the company. I know them both and I actually brought them together in a way like I feel that there is something we have to co-create together. And it was very interesting to see that actually, I could not schedule their agendas together at a certain point. She was not available, he was not available, I was like, I want you to meet. Then, at a certain point, I was like, okay, you know, what? This weekend, I’m going to Belgrade. Please join me, to her and him. And then we came to Belgrade for a weekend to introduce them to each other and also look at where we are as persons and what we want in this world. So there, the idea of Your next story came. And it was actually founded by frustration, because we saw a huge mismatch between, let’s say, potential and talents within companies, and also how companies are using them or not using them. And this mismatch, in a way, we thought we can help this. So there Your next story came from, and we’ve thought of these 100-day programs because you need 100 days to embed a new skill, or whatever, your behaviour actually. So if you change behaviour, you need like 100 days to be embedded in life. So we chose this number. And we have developed the whole program which has certain aspects. Which is also partially digital, but also very much in real life. We help companies to kind of look at the motivation of their people. We look at where their values are. How do values match the employees of the company and the company itself? Because that’s a core thing we believe.
N: If you don’t start with that, you’ll have problems later.
B: Exactly. Also, we look at resilience. How resilient are you? And are you able to actually adapt to it? Because you need, let’s say, in the working force, you need soldiers, you need pioneers. So we, actually, indicate how the diversity within the company is organized? Do you have enough of what you need as a company? Also, how do you communicate with each other based on your values?
N: So how are you measuring this? How are you measuring if the program is successful? It’s very interesting for me to ask this question because recently we had an episode with a neuroscientist. We talked about how to measure empathy. And it was something that it’s so hard to measure. How you measure the success of this program because what you aim for with this program is personal development.
B: It’s very difficult. In the short term, let’s say, results are visible in a way and you could measure those. But because we embed a long time thing, because it has to click in the way and it doesn’t click right away within the program or right after the program, it takes some time. So we are actually really looking into how we can measure the long term impact our programs have, and we are not yet there because time has to pass to also see. What we also talk about with our clients is that you have to accept if you work with us that maybe some of your employees will choose a different career path. And you can see it as a loss but, on the other hand, you have helped this person to actually know what he or she wants and follow their heart or whatever they are here for. And we also show them that actually, these employees are lifetime ambassadors because you as a brand or as a company enabled them to look into themselves and what they actually want. We always try to make the glass half full in a way and also discuss the risks. Which also can be beneficial.
N: It sounds like a very fair sum game, right? It’s everybody’s win, even if you’re looking from one perspective, for example, some employees are going to leave that company. It’s good for the company as well as for the employee.
B: Right. Exactly. And you know what, those ambassadors outside of your company are maybe more valued than ambassadors inside of your company. Because they have a broader scope.
N: So, you’re talking about unlocking human potential with this and it’s complex to do this, even on the small scale, but let’s talk bigger, let’s talk on the higher scale, on the bigger scale. Is it impossible? Or are there any innovations, technological or any other type that can help this to scale?
B: If we’re really talking about technology, we developed an app that helps us through this process. And I think, at a certain point, we’re going to add AI to it because I think the market is asking for it. But if we look at what we are doing, with potential and talents, I think innovation is daring. So we actually challenge the companies to unlock the potential of their employees. And there the big innovation is. So, not act from fear or control but look at unused potential or look at maybe that you put someone in a position where they actually don’t use their full potential. And we try to also wake up the company like, look at what you have, and see how you can actually work with what you have. And we see that through control or fear, they don’t have time to look at it, it’s always a quick fix in a way, and talents leave or they are not engaged anymore. They’re laid back and they think: “Well, whatever”, so this is also a huge cost, or they leave and then you have again costs for research for defining the right talents, but also to engage them and educate them. It’s like a very old model. And I think it’s time for something new now.
N: Can you share with me some good examples of how you made the change on the people themselves? Can you just take one example from the group that you’ve had?
B: It’s so interesting because we are not there to judge, so that’s one thing. And everybody has their personal lifeline. In our program, we always say what you invest you gain back. So if you are open to actually really open up in a way, like put everything on the table, because we’re doing a lot of reflections, we’re doing a lot of, let’s say, like, what are your habits and do you like them? Do you dislike them, because there is a lot of space in the program to actually take time for yourself? We say it’s present to ourselves. And this thing, it has to click with people. So at this point in the program, because there’s always a period of time within the program that people are trying to avoid or anything, I’m not sure. But at the point when it clicks then they are engaged. And then the results are huge. So because they see it like, okay, this is actually a present to me, and I want to gain the most out of it. Everybody has a different level of most. But, what we see is that we get letters, we get emails, we get messages after X amount of time. Like “Hey, I’m here now and I thought of that moment with you guys there. It helped me a lot. And now I have the reflection on it. I understood what you were doing there”, things like that. So we see that we really create something which gives people insights on themselves but also helps them, not only on the career paths but also in personal life. To grow in every perspective of their personality.
N: While I was researching this subject, I came across an interesting idea that said that unlocking potential is a process of unlearning and learning. What is your position on this?
B: Well, what’s his name, Lao Tzu, also had this perspective: you gain knowledge if you can kind of get new information, but you get wisdom if you can let go of the old habits and old things. So that’s the unlearning part. And I think because we look at limiting beliefs, for example. Which limiting beliefs did you have through childhood or through life, which you don’t need anymore? That’s the unlearning part.
N: So you are like a different person now.
B: And still needs this, and through some exercises… Also what is very powerful within our programs is the peer to peer conversations where you actually share your stories. This goes very deep. And we also say it’s like that because I can now call someone from one of those programs. We are lifetime friends, we don’t have to talk to each other every week or every month. You go that deep, and you know each other that well in the court that you don’t actually experience that with your friends, with your family. It’s a different level of connecting. There we also say that unlearning is: “Okay, look at yourself, what do you need to let go to actually make the step forward in whatever direction you want to?” And I think, if you add relearning to unlearn, and learn, is actually like, what can we learn in a new way to actually help our growth? So there is also a part. Which things can we do differently? And that’s actually going in a higher, let’s say, development level.
N: I’m so impressed with this program. But I want to ask you from the other side of the story, what are the biggest challenges?
B: I think the biggest challenge is actually choosing the right clients who are having the guts in the way to step into a program with us. Like I mentioned before, you can lose your employees. But also, we don’t want to work with clients who choose the employees who are going through our program, because this is not gonna work. We actually want our clients to give the employees the choice because I need the intrinsic motivation of the people who actually feel that they have to do something, whatever it is, that I need this intrinsic motivation to have a successful program. So this is one side. And as soon as management wants to choose the employees, it’s not going to be as good as it could be. And also, some of our rules are management also has to be in the program, everyone is equal.
N: Completely engage.
B: Yes. That’s also a challenge for us because some companies are transparent, some are not. And we actually only want to work with those who are transparent, because you can’t work with the working force, let’s say, and management is misaligned, then it will never be successful. So we try to combine everything. I think these are some of the biggest challenges of our programs in general if we look at the 100 days. Within 100 days, we have outdoor journeys. We go to basic life completely remote. We also did some of those programs in Serbia and Montenegro.
N: You actually brought the people from Amsterdam.
B: The whole world. We had 27 nationalities in a certain program for another client. What we do, and it’s also somewhat of a challenge, when you talk to local partners it’s always on multiple dimensions. We always find complex experiences for people to go through with us. You have of course the program with the reflections and assignments and things, but it’s multidimensional because I always looked at the experience they’re in. It’s not a coincidence that they are at a certain point on a bike. It’s not a coincidence that they are on top of the hill because it all adds to their experience and their process. This is something that is also difficult to explain to others, or partners, or companies because people will ask why don’t they sleep in the hotel. No, everyone can sleep in the hotel, we build a camp on top of a mountain because it adds value to the whole program. This is really like a design, which is on different layers and also the food they eat, where they get the food and how it is connected. It all has a reason. So this is also a big challenge to actually explain to, let’s say, providing partners.
N: So we are talking today here on unlocking human potential, of course, but I want to move to a bit philosophical realm, right? And maybe this is going to be the hardest question that you need to answer. In your opinion, where is the next breakthrough in human potential?
B: Good one. Well, I think there’s already a shift happening in the world. I think some countries, less than other countries. But I think if we look at how organizations are developing, I see that before the hard skills, the job skills were kind of well-rated. Now the companies are also looking at soft skills, let’s say, human skills. It’s interesting to see that peer to peer, like the horizontal reviews, always bring out the soft skills of people, where when it’s vertical when it’s like the manager, or the director and employees, it’s always the hard skills. So it’s interesting to see that peer to peer is more looking at the soft skills where management is always looking which hard skills can be improved, and what can be different. So I think there is a shift happening because I think nowadays, the new workforce is actually not only going for that salary. They’re also choosing who I want to work for, what kind of manager do I need? And who’s actually going to help me further in my career path? Where before, that wasn’t really a big issue? Also, I think they look very much at which company am I choosing? And how is this company engaged in the world from a social perspective, on the environmental perspective, sustainable perspective, whatever? So I think there’s already a shift happening on that part. Because that old model where we actually promote those toxic leaders in a way. This can be in politics, but it can also be in companies, I think it’s not of added value everywhere anymore. I think a new kind of management is needed. Here and there we see them, which is a very good thing.
Because you need more empathy, you have to be capable of not being there for yourself, but for the joint goal and together, and I think there’s a big shift already going on. So it’s not something which we are looking into the future, it is already happening.
N: Maybe we can reflect on this crisis that we have right now in the world. What do you think is the human race going to change dramatically in the years that will follow? Not just on the one, let’s say, career level, but on all other levels.
B: I think that people will really look more into “Who am I?”. I just recently saw an interview on “Wired”. I don’t know if you know it, it’s about Yuval Noah Harari, he wrote a book. And this was an interview together with Jim Harris. And they were talking about how actually people are programmed. If you look at all the algorithms on the social networks and the things. It’s very scary to see that in the end, we can all be programmed. But in the end, I think, as long as you are capable, because the world is changing very quickly. And we are all in it. But if you are capable of learning, and going with the flow in a way, but staying, let’s say, to yourself in a way and knowing yourself and what you are here for, I think that’s a big difference. So there I see a huge potential in the working force or the race, or whatever you call it, where they actually can have an impact on what’s going to happen in the world and also within the companies.
N: Bojana, thank you so much for this conversation and I enjoyed it a lot. And for you out there, subscribe if you haven’t already, and I’ll see you next Thursday when we talk about some innovations.
B: Thank you very much.
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